Here's our thread for Marvin's Story! Please remember everyone that critiques are due no later than thirty-one days from the date that the topic posts. So this critique would be due no later than January 31st.
I'm looking forward to discussing this ghostly tale with everyone!
Also, please join me in welcoming Fernando to our group. A warm welcome Fernando!!!
Happy New Year to All!
P.S. Just a friendly reminder, everybody... if your critique is long, please upload it (using the option below) as a file and let's keep this space for conversation.
Thanks so much!!!
Thanks for the welcome and Marvin's story. I've downloaded it and will critique very soon.
Fernando
Marvin!
You grew my interest. I liked the way you built to the climax, though the follow–up might have been sharper. The twist at the last was a surprise. I am left wondering if JJ is dead now. You let me imagine a few more endings. That makes the story real for me.
There are a couple places where I stumble. For instance, I needed to go more than half way through your story before I was confident JJ is the protagonist.
You left good hints and a possible red herring, as you should in a mystery, but the Ah Ha moment seemed a bit contrived. Perhaps, if I knew fo sure that the research from Briton ended with Philip Davis. In looking for my own ancestry, I look at death certificates. These show who the deceased left behind – at least in the U.S. – such as children, and siblings of the deceased. I guess where I get confused is; you have me imagine a search; "He traced the Dawkins lineage back several generations …” then come back to Philip Davis. Why is Philip ashamed so many generations after the artful dodger existed?
I could do without the first paragraph about JW. I had a little trouble with JJ meaning ‘Jack Jr.’ as opposed to ‘James Jr.’, though you did need the connection with Jack Dawkins. However, in hindsight, this may come off as contrived. For my money, naming JJ Oberon, would not have taken a bit from the suspense.
Finally, I have to ask what the ghosts of inner city street urchins are doing in a Tudor estate in the countryside of England.
Overall, you’ve done well, I think. Once you got my feet planted in the tale, you did your job.
Nando.
Great points, Fernando! I'll wait until the other two critiques are posted before I tell everyone what I was told was the reason my story didn't make the final "cut." Any thoughts on what I should do with this story? It's too short to be a book. Once I address the issues you mentioned, do you think it has book potential, if lengthened?
Hi, Everyone!
Please join me in welcoming our newest members Sandy, Bruno and Lois!
I will be weighing in on Marvin's story this weekend.
I will be sending out an updated e-mail list for everyone over the next couple of days. Just a reminder that manuscripts are emailed directly to members, but critiques are posted to the NJCWG forum (like this one) to allow for group discussion.
Thanks, everybody!
It's snowing here in New Jersey today. What's the weather like in your part of the world?
Marvin,
First let me say that I love the theme (Scare the Dickens Out of Us) for this competition: A ghost story using a character from a work by Charles Dickens. Quite a challenge and very interesting!
I have read and reread this piece, and my thoughts are as follows: I think that you have done a very good job throughout the work in making the reader feel uneasy (very important for this type of story). However, I could not get past the fact that Jack Dawkins is a fictional character being linked through a family tree with a contemporary family. It just didn't feel real to me in that sense. Where you are very strong is with your description of Mrs. Applewhite. Yet, her connection to this band of boy thieves was never even considered. Does she realize who these ghosts are or is she just guessing? Why does she continue to stay in such a creepy old house that fills her with such fear? Also, since she lives in the cellar, she must have incredible hearing and be swift as a gazelle since she makes it to the second floor the moment that the children set foot to the third floor.
Moreover, why would Jack Dawkins want to hurt his own flesh and blood? Is he that intent on privacy? Perhaps you could introduce additional conflict into the story by creating conflict between a defending Dawkins and a spirit that seeks to hurt his great-great grandchildren. This seems more logical to me.
You describe the English Tudor as a three level modest home, but Mr. Davis is picked up at the airport in a white Rolls Royce. Why is a family whose father is important enough to receive luxury Rolls Royce service complete with a chauffeur staying in a "modest" home? I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen, but why is it the case?
I also agree with Fernando that it seems odd to have street urchins hanging around a Tudor home. True, you tell us that the home was built on land once used by the gang as a hideout, but it just doesn't match well.
The ending was for me a let down. I wanted something less predictable with more punch.
Again, I agree with Fernando that the names of the male characters are too similar. Additionally, the story starts out like a story about Mr. Davis but really becomes a story about J.J. his son.
This all said, I enjoyed reading "Ghostly Gifts." Your dialogue was very believable, and I especially enjoyed your descriptions of people and places.
Actually, I think that a collection of stories from various writers using this same theme (Scare the Dickens Out of Us) would make an interesting collection. You might consider pitching that idea to the next editor that you cross paths with!
Thanks for sharing. I hope that these observations help. All the best!
Sheila,
What helpful suggestions you make! I won't respond to them right now, but will wait until the other members of the critique group have had a chance to offer their comments.
You and Fernando offered some thoughts about the characters and connecting them to the story. For now, all I will say in response to that is that I was under a 4,000 word limit. Maybe I had too much irrelevant information in the story, and some or all of that could be replaced with more relevant "connecting" thoughts, but at the time I put the story together, the relatively short length accounted for some of the apparently unconnected pieces that were, in my own mind, connected. I just didn't share all of that with the reader (because of the word limitation.)
I will say this, however; with what you and Fernando have offered, I can now see two ways to go with this; a collection of similarly founded short stories, and/or lengthening it into a story that would stand on its own. And that was the very reason I wanted to have my writing "peers" read and critique it. Thanks for your input and the questions you posed.
You are most welcome, Marvin!
Hi Marvin, et.al.
First, let me say that I love a good mystery story, and would love to even begin to know how to write one.
Your characterization is very strong. I really felt like I knew who each character was, as I was reading. I could feel his/her feelings and connections with the other characters. I liked the use of the British "accent" and felt it wasn't over the top. I think you should use more of it with Mrs. Applewhite's dialogue.
I think you need to examine your point of view. When I was taking the beginning course at the Institute for Children's Literature, my instructor was a stickler for point of view. Yours seems to be mostly from JJ's pov, but it does seem to switch occasionally.
Your plot starts out strong, but then it got a little flat. I know you were under a word restriction, but it seems like the resolution came too quickly. The parents went from saying that there is no such thing as ghosts, to saying that the ghosts must be real, way too quickly and easily. I agree with Sheila that the ending was a little too predictable.
I have sent your original back to you as an attachment in an email, with some more specific suggestions. I hope you find them helpful. I wish you luck with this story. I think it has some great potential. I look forward to seeing what the contest judges said about it.
A happy welcome to all our new members!
Thanks for your input, Patti. Very helpful, as always! I'll review the specific suggestions and get back to you with my thoughts, as well as, what the judges said about this piece.
I agree with Patti about the POV aspect to Ghostly Gifts and in general. Of course, this does not mean that a writer cannot get inside the heads of more than one of his characters. It's more about the way it's done. POV takes finessing, and while I sometimes think that it is overly stressed in children's literature, as writers it is something that we need to be always thinking about. If we jump from narrator to various personal points of view, this can feel strange to the reader. POV is one of those writing challenges that makes most of us want to scream at one time or another!
Interesting observations! I was able to exchange manuscripts with the man whose story won second place in the contest. He offered his critique of my "Ghostly Gifts" story. He was the first one to address POV. Now it has been repeated by you, my fellow writers of Critique Group 1. Obviously, I need to address the POV if I am to move the manuscript forward. Thanks to those of you who recognized that weakness in my presentation.
I'll add the comments from the contest sponsors in another week or two, giving time to our newest members to add their comments, if they so desire.
Marvin,
Thank you for the opportunity to read “Ghostly Gifts.” I think that, especially in children’s literature, if you can create a connection to a cherished classic you are doing a real service for the reader, especially since they may not have even heard of Charles Dickens up to this point.
When I first started this piece I was very excited, since my work also tends to have a very paranormal slant to it. Yet, as I went on some little nuisances began to pick at my brain. I am sure that some of my comments may sound a bit petty when you review them, but please taken them for what they are. They merely suggestions which you can choose to use or discard since this tale is as you already know, entirely yours.
I thought the story was going very well until the family arrived at the Tudor home in England. It’s at this point that we are introduced to Beatrice Applewhite a character that over the next several pages haunts us with her ghostly pallor and constant disappearing act. What struck me though was her vernacular. She spoke with “there’s and that’s” which for a house keeper to a family in England made her seem well, a bit too “colonial”. Reginald, the caretaker on the other hand, who is far less spooky, speaks with heavy “cockney” accent and is alien enough for the reader to make him feel foreign yet Beatrice for all her mystery and creepiness sounds like one of JW’s family when she speaks.
Once the haunting begins upstairs I could feel the tension and the nervousness of the two children, which was good, but I became a bit put off by a note written in blood. There are many times in a ghostly tale where that imagery can be used, but when dealing with a classic like “Oliver” I think, that as Mr. Dickens showed us many years ago, it doesn’t have to splatter to be scary. It’s been years since I read it but I don’t remember anything written in blood; if I am mistaken on this point please ignore this particular paragraph.
Also, you left us with no decision. There is a famous punk song which I think sums it up best when dealing with a family that is bothering a ghost, “should I stay or should I go”. Unfortunately, for JJ there is no choice. He is told to leave but you also mention that once disturbed this particular spook stays with you forever, as is evident by the arrival of the ghostly gift a full year later. Stories like that, take away some of the fear factor for me. Damned is damned. If that’s the case then the reader already knows JJ is doomed, reading on just confirms his fate. I would have preferred a warning that he somehow tries to cheat or ignore. That way when the ghostly gift comes we say to ourselves, “Well, he warned you and you didn’t listen JJ.”
Like Sheila, I was also a bit confused on why the ghost would want to hurt one of his own descendents. If I was haunting a house I would want help from my kin unless there was a reason that I needed to be so secretive or so cruel. I think you might want to explain that a bit more if you can.
Now, for the positives: I think that your pacing is really good. The story for me flowed nicely and is well written. You also did a great job with Beatrice when it came to her looming about and frightening the children. I was actually hoping that she was the ghost and that after a few days in the house the realtor was going to stop by to apologize for the house keeper he had hired “turning up sick”. I would have loved that reaction from JJ and Angel. Either way, I think that you have written something quite nice and I like that you leave us guessing at the end. Thank you Marvin for a good read and enough creep to make this paranormal writer get a few goose-bumps as well.
B. Grigoletti
I LOVE the idea of making Mrs. Applewhite a ghost! Great suggestion, Bruno!
What makes a great mystery or tale of horror is to turn the reader's expectations upside down, making the "normal" abnormal.
This would explain her uncanny ability to guard the third floor by being present at a moment's notice. Moreover, I find the idea of the family interacting with her, only to find out that she is not what she seems, especially creepy.
Perhaps she is somehow keeping the children "locked" in this old house. There are a million directions that this could take you in, Marvin.
I'm looking forward to hearing from everyone else on this point.
Ooooh, that is a really good idea about Mrs. Applewhite! As I was reading, I kind of felt "cheated" that she was characterized so well, but turned up not to have really much to do with the ghosting.
Now I know why I wanted to be part of a critiquing group comprised of other children's writers! Bruno, your critique is absolutely "right on!" Thank you so much for pointing out so many opportunities to make this a marketable story. If this is just a sample of your writing ability, I can't wait to read one of your stories! My sincere thanks to you, and to Sheila and Pat for their additional input. I can "feel" the excitement in your responses.
Everyone, please join me in congratulating Marvin. He has received news from "Good Old Days" magazine that his piece entitled "The Hummingbird" has been accepted for publication in their upcoming August issue. Good Old Days is a publication devoted to recalling nostalgic memories of America's past, and in this piece, Marvin reminds us of the legendary train called the Hummingbird.
Marvin is a train enthusiast, as well as a writer, so this article has brought two of his great passions together into a fun and educational read.
CONGRATULATIONS, Marvin!!!
Well done !!!
Another feather in your cap and Iam sure it is well deserved.
Hooray, Marvin! That is awesome for you! Congratulations!
Way to go, Marvin
I've got the calendar marked for July, in case the magazine hits B&N early. Congratulations.
Fernando
Congrats Marvin! My critique of Ghostly Gifts will be posted soon!
Marvin,
I really enjoyed your story Ghostly Gifts. I haven't read anyone else's critique, so here are my thoughts on your story.
I like the catchy intro paragraph -- the reader has an immediate knowledge that JW's professional persona is different that of his personal life. The last sentence of the 1st paragraph had me wondering how much in advance of the 1st Friday of December he was gathering his family (just a technicality for me).
I like the way you introduce his wife Angel - she accepts him and his way. I don't know why, but I love the line "The question was met with stunned silence." It is so real...but I digress.
My general comment for the 1st and 2nd pages is this -- if his family were so used to his outlandish surprises (which seem to be expected now), I was wondering why the trip to London would have warranted a negative reaction from his children? Unless of course his "surprises" weren't that far out, just out of the ordinary for his family.
I really like the description of JW's kids -- I could picture them mentally throughout the rest of the story, which seemed to revolve around JJ more than anyone else. I thought that the line on page 2, "Then it's settled," said Angel. Before she could say another word, JJ and Amnda were running to pack..." was a little out of place; it didn't quite fit with the attitudes/reactions you gave to the kids. It was kind of like they had to have Mom's "OK" to be excited, when you gave the impression in the beginning of the story that Angel went with the flow with JW's ideas -- so should have their children.
Small thing..I didn't get the imprsseion that the chaufeeur knew what the fmily looked like, so having him approach the Davis family, instead of vice-versa didn't seem to fit. Also in this section, I thought youshould have had Amnda asking the questions about driving on the "wrong side of the road", etc. If JJ were such a bookish, "nerdy" child I would have thought that he would have somehow "known" this particular detail (he is 11). I like the cockneyed accent you add to Reginald's dialogue (nice authentic touch) - I could "hear" the difference when I was reading the story.
Mrs. Applewhite -- what can I say -- I think you have captured the essence of this character beautifully. Just what I would have expected "piercing black eyes, pasty white face" if I were going to be scared out of my wits in a strange house. Your development of her is perfect - you carry her personality and temperment consistently through the story.
Page 8 paragraph 4 -- Seems like an awkward filler -- I didn't get the impression that there was any conflict between JJ and Amanda. So, Angel's surpise at seeing them in teh same bed together adn the idea of JJ as her "protector" was a little off for me. You could try a different sedgway to bring us to the next morning.
Also in the same section, I wasn't sure what prompted JJ to locate a record for Richard Charles Dawkins when he didn't find a record for Philip Edward Davis. I could understand if the name were Philip Edward Dawkins or Richard Charles Davis -- then I could understand looking at another record..it is kind of buried that Richard Dawkins had a child with the same name as Davis. Besides that, I love how the "digging" allows JJ to find the details he needs...I think you have summed his findings up very nicely and not too drwn out. the language really flows well for this serendipitous moment.
Small comment -- I think that you should clrify that the "Dodger" was Fagin. I had to read the section twice to realize that Jack Dawkins wasn't the one who went to jail :)
I really enjoyed the part about his genealogical notes missing and then coming back with a message from the Artful Dodger. I just wondered why JW (being the adventurer that he was) wouldn't have inspected the 3rd floor with JJafter Mrs. Applewhite left for a few days. He seemed to believe him about the prospect of the ghosts. If they both were witness to the ghosts, I think it would really add even more strength to your ending, which I really liked, but......what did the message say???? :):):)
Excellent piece and story line! Thanks so much for sharing!
Lois 8-)
Some good points, Lois, but I think that there is some confusion here: my reading of this story is that Jack Dawkins (the Artful Dodger) went to prison for stealing a silver snuff box. Fagin is not the "Dodger," he's the manipulating crook who ensnared young boys and turned them into pickpockets.
Marvin, I think that what is becoming clear here, is that so many similar names (of those living and departed) are causing confusion. Something to consider.
Also, I need to let everyone know that Sandy is recovering from a prolonged illness and will not be joining in until March.
I would also like to wish Marvin a very Happy Birthday today! Best wishes, Marvin!
OK Sheila -- I just re-read that section. You are correct. There were a few names that came up rather quickly in that section for me!
Ditto to Marvin Happy Birthday :)
Yes, all of the similar names are lending to the confusion. It's good that this came up, so now Marvin can take this into consideration.
Type/Talk with you soon!
Thanks for all of the valuable and useful feedback. I realized that there was some confusion on Lois' part with respect to who the Dodger and Fagan were, but I didn't feel it was necessary to comment on that. After all, these critiques, while they are fantastically helpful, are opinions and don't always require a response. I WILL take a look at the names [that seem so similar] and see what can be done (in the rewrite) to clear up that confusion, but I also want to point out that it (the confusion) wasn't even brought up until this late stage of the critique. If this sounds defensive on my part, it isn't intended that way. I merely wanted you to understand where I am coming from when I respond to your observations.
Thanks to everyone who sent birthday wishes. It has been a good day, primarily because of all of my caring friends ... like you guys!
I understand your point, Marvin, and of course, not every criticism needs to be addressed. Moreover, it is important that we all carefully read a work before critiquing it. I think that your text made it clear who the Artful Dodger was.
That said, the observation over confusing names started early on with Fernando, and I concur. There is no right or wrong to this particular criticism, but when multiple readers are red-flagging something, it needs to be considered. We are not writing for ourselves alone, and clarity is very important. The final decision to change the text or not is yours.
Also, I have no problem with writers explaining their viewpoint or defending their work following critiques. I think that lively discussions and friendly debates help all of us to hone our analytical skills and make us better writers and editors. It is important that we all feel free to share our opinions, otherwise, we aren't really doing one another a service. Moreover, great works have not always been understood during their time, and I always love to hear a writer's reasoning behind why they have chosen to do something that I disagree with. I sometimes change my mind.
Who's up next?
Points well taken!
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